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[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER]  So we have a lot of very valuable sources. And it takes time to make sense out of all of it and be aware that, days later, the facts may change, and you have to record them as they come. 

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[ALAN KADISH] Hi, I'm Dr. Alan Kadish, and welcome to Touro Talks. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Professor Monty Penkower. Professor Penkower is a Professor Emeritus at Touro University of Jewish History. He's also lectured at universities around the United States. 

He's an award winning author of numerous books and articles on the Holocaust, on American Jewry, and on the rise of the state of Israel. His newest book, Awakening To Radical Islamist Evil, The Hamas War Against Israel and The Jews, which is the first daily account of the initial six months of the war forced upon Israel by Hamas, was published in February of 2005. Welcome, Professor Penkower. 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Thank you. 

[ALAN KADISH] Very good to have you. Let's start by introducing yourself to our audience. Tell us a little bit about your professional history and your scholarship related to Israeli history. 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Well, considering we have only a few minutes, I'll make it very brief. Highlights, BA, Yeshiva University, Yeshiva College, Columbia, MA and PhD. I started-- this is now five decades, studying modern Jewish history and American Jewish history, focusing on the Holocaust and the rise of the state of Israel. Between the years 1933 and 1948, which I consider the most significant events in not only modern Jewish history, but probably since the second temple, in the course of these almost five decades, I'm coming now on book number 18, which also touches on Zionism. And these are my current academic interests. 

[ALAN KADISH] Favorite book apart from the current one? We'll get to the current one in a moment. 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Impossible to say, because they're all different. Some, there's a five volume series on the rise of Israel from 1933, 1948. But the war, the war imposed on Israel by Hamas with that brutal, savage attack of October 7, 2023, is already three volumes in, because each volume beginning with this one covers six months. And I'm already starting volume four. I can't say I have a favorite book. 

[ALAN KADISH] OK, so let's talk a little bit about that. You say this will be a four volume set. 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] I wish it could have stopped with volume one. Right now, I'm starting volume four, and who knows? We don't know when and how this will end, and while it's on, I'm presenting a daily account. 

[ALAN KADISH] From the standpoint of an historian and an author, how did you pick six month periods? How did that come about? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] OK, about two or three days after the war began, I realized there would be another war, a war which I call for the narrative. And, so with my graduate education, I tried to be as objective as possible, giving a daily account, so that, at least, following the chronology, we would know who said what, and when, and what happened, and what did not happen. The difficulties are multiple, and when I got to six months, I said, this is very, very long. I had to stop there. 

So the conclusion to volume one and, unfortunately, the others to follow is peppered with question marks. And six months, it seemed to me, was a good way to stop, give some conclusions, and then continue. And the difficulties, which I can point to in a minute, are multiple, and I hope I've solved them. 

[ALAN KADISH] So you didn't start out with a plan to create six month intervals? It's just as you were writing the book? As the war progressed, you thought that would be a good stopping point? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Yeah, the difficulty enough were a challenge, first of all. It's not merely a local event. It has regional implications, and it certainly has international implications. And B, if I wish to be objective, that would require my covering not only the different Arab spokespeople in the Middle East. It would also include the United States, Russia, China, Turkey, et cetera, and that was a great difficulty. And, so as I was writing, I realized I had to stop after six months. 

[ALAN KADISH] The book is written in a very standoffish tone, which, I think, reflects the fact that you wrote it as a history. 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Correct. 

[ALAN KADISH] How did you feel writing about this book in that fashion? Did it create challenges for you? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] The challenges were multiple. Personally, it's extremely draining. I'm coping with the war. I'm using the present tense, because it hasn't over, unfortunately, on a daily basis, which meant that I had to constantly review what was going on, morning, afternoon, and night. That was the first difficulty on a personal level. 

And second issue, while, obviously, I living in Israel now almost 23 years, I am very engaged in what's going on. I have grandchildren on the various war fronts, and every Israeli feels. There's family connections, et cetera. 

The second difficulty is there are no archives. This is very presentist. So unlike everything I've written up to this point, which heavily is rooted in archival material, primary archives, here, we don't have that. I suspect that, maybe in 50 years, we'll know much more of the nitty gritty, what happened in the various meetings in different places. 

But right now, at least people looking back can see, I think, an accurate chronological record trying to be, as I said, as objective as possible. That meant that I had to follow Arab media. I had to follow media from all over the world, books, articles, et cetera, and that, too, was a great challenge. But I think I was able to meet it. 

[ALAN KADISH] So let me ask you a question that, I'm sure, others will ask about the book. You've been upfront about the fact that you've been living in Israel for more than 20 years. You have relatives who are fighting in the war. How do you stay objective in writing a book like this, and do you really think you could be objective? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] I'm trying as much as possible. That's my Columbia background. My mentor, William Leuchtenburg, who just passed away last year, the venerable age of 102, the prime expert on Franklin D. Roosevelt, he has taught me, among many things, don't editorialize, give the facts as they are, and let the reader decide. And I think, in that way, I held back, obviously, any personal responses in order to give, as I said, as objective as possible a view. 

[ALAN KADISH] Yeah, and I think you did a good job of it. As I said, it seemed like this must be highly emotional, but it generally didn't come through in reading the text. 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Yes, I'm very pleased to say, I don't have to quote their names on the back of the book itself. There are a number of scholars quoted, and they all pointed that out. However, the challenge, that it was true to history. 

[ALAN KADISH] Let's begin talking a little bit about the book, or at least the events in the book. You started, really, with a brief introduction, but the strength of the book, of course, is, as you point out, the contemporaneous daily account of what happened in the first six months of the war. How do you view this war in terms of historical context, in terms of the history of Israel and the history of the Middle East? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] I think it can be said to begin with, this certainly-- that savage attack was the worst event in Jewish history since the Holocaust. In one day, more than 1,200 people were murdered. More than 250 were taken to Gaza. So Israelis, then and to this very day, are wrestling with tremendous trauma on many levels at the very least. 

The government, they felt, had abandoned them at that time for reasons we can explain later, why we think the government failed in this regard. And the trauma is not limited to the widows, the orphans, the families who have suffered tragic losses. There's also the difficulty of, how does Israel come back, its resilience? 

It has to go forward. It's a changed country. The country is still divided, obviously, in terms of the very difficult issues. What do we do about hostages? What do we do about continuing the war, et cetera, et cetera? 

There are, obviously, pressures beginning with the Biden administration. Now, we have the Trump administration. So in the context of Israeli history, it is a traumatic event that, I think, will be with us for a very, very long time. And I think, at the very least, it will require new leadership at both the political and the military levels. 

And in many ways, I'm hoping that a new generation-- many of whom gave their lives for this. it's more than 850 soldiers alone who were murdered and killed in the war. I think that the country has shown remarkable resistance, but demands a new change, whatever it be, in the years to come. 

[ALAN KADISH] So you alluded to Israel's failure and the government's failure to protect people on October 7. There's been a lot published, even in the last few weeks, about how Israel's defense failed so extensively on October 7. And it's not really sort of a major focus of at least the first volume of the book, in particular, probably, because, as you wrote it, not as you point out, the archives aren't available yet. 

We don't really know sort of the answers, but you mentioned that you think that failure had an impact on Israeli society. How would you like to see that dealt with? Rather than quizzing you about which version you agree with, how do you think Israel, at this very point, should deal with analyzing that failure? When should there be extensive investigations? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] OK. 

[ALAN KADISH] And how should those happen? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Some in the high military echelons have taken responsibility. Some have resigned, which is all appropriate. Unfortunately, in the political level, the very top has not resigned or taken even responsibility, blaming others. And I think the next elections, I wish would be much earlier. We'll see a change in leadership, which I think is essential. 

That's one issue. The other issue is we, unfortunately, for some years, have a party system, where you have multiple groups, however small their specific numbers, which hold coalitions often really in control. And that has to change. I would say, at the very least, the percentage of voting has to change. It has to be a higher level, so that minor parties will not be able to exercise their influence on the political makeup, yeah. 

[ALAN KADISH] For those people who may not be that familiar with the Israeli political system-- 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] OK. 

[ALAN KADISH] The Knesset, which is the Israeli representative authority, is elected by multiple parties running for a seat, and then there's a prime minister appointed by the majority, and there's a threshold above which a party has to reach to have any seats in the Knesset. 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Correct. So I would like to see that threshold raised considerably, so that minor parties will not have their influence. I think the country is very ready for a center sort of government, not right wing or left wing. The majority of the country overwhelmingly, at this point, according to all polls, and given what happened, is against a two state solution to solve the issue, namely a Palestinian state and the Israeli state. 

Even the leaders in the left group on the Southern areas that were attacked by Hamas, who often voted for left wing groups, like Meretz and so forth party, very much now realize they were betrayed by certain Palestinian Arab leaders, and they're very much against a two state solution. What's going to happen in an ideal world? I don't know what's going to happen. Just as Israel now, the idea of the Israel Defense forces, has the obligation and the right to invade when danger lurks in what is called area A. The Palestinian Authority control of the West Bank, we call it Judea and Samaria. 

So, too, I think it will happen. It should happen vis a vis Gaza. The vast majority of Israelis certainly don't want to get involved in Gaza again. 

They voluntarily, that is the government, required the expulsion of many, many thousands of Israelis and their communities from Gaza. Already, in 2005, Ariel Sharon, then Prime Minister, thought this would bring peace. Of course, it did not. The minute they retreated, Hamas within two years took over control of that area, and rockets began. So a two state solution is not in the cards for the majority of Israelis. 

[ALAN KADISH] So you mentioned that you thought that the Knesset system has allowed minority parties to have increasing control, and that by changing it or modifying it, the government, could move towards the center. 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Correct. 

[ALAN KADISH] I will point out that, geopolitically, if you look at other countries around the world who have many different kinds of Democratic systems, it's been hard to find the center in the United States. It's been hard to find the center in Europe. So I'm not sure that changing the threshold will in and of itself be able to alter that and allow a country or Israel to find the center a priori. I think it's going to require more than that. 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Right. I didn't say that was the only solution. The other solution is the army itself is going to have to undergo tremendous examination. The old view, which we call in Hebrew, “Conceptzia,” a concept that basically-- and this was the phrase of the IDF to mow the lawn, namely to go in when there was danger and otherwise to leave, the idea that one focused more on modern technology than boots on the ground. All this is going to, I think, mandate a major revision in military terms. So that's another major change, I think, has to be done. 

[ALAN KADISH] So let's turn to, actually, the title of your book, something that we don't often spend time on. 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Right. 

[ALAN KADISH] You begin the title by Awakening to Radical Islamist Evil. I would say that, that part of the title actually is perhaps more judgmental than much of the book. So how did you choose that title? And tell us a little bit about how you think Islam will relate. 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] I think I had mentioned just a minute ago about this “Conceptzia,” that the IDF top echelon and the political top echelon under Netanyahu and so forth, and even other prime ministers, felt that, if they could, for example, provide economic benefits to the Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, et cetera, that this would bring, if not peace, at least quiet. And that, of course, was not the case. Why? They didn't appreciate enough that the enemies, including Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, Iran, they are committed. 

As the late Professor Bernard Lewis pointed out, they were committed and are committed to Israel's destruction because of a radical Islamist ideology. Basically, religious in tone, the Muslim Brotherhood was really the start of this in the late 1920s and on. There was no place in their ideology for a Jewish presence in what they claim is the Islamic world, in their view, and hence my title, Radical Islamist Evil. 

The world is divided into two worlds, the world of Islam and the world of the infidels, and it's a war to the end. And many leaders in the army here and in the political sphere refuse to accept this point of view, and I think that's why I chose Radical Islamist Evil. Awakening-- I think October 7 was the real awakening. Until then, this general “Conceptzia” ruled, and that's why the subtitle also is The Hamas War Against Israel, but also, and the Jews, because the Jews are part of the infidel world. It's not limited to Jews. Anyone who's not an Islamist is part of that enemy. Hence the title. 

[ALAN KADISH] Thank you. We haven't talked much about-- we haven't talked much about the people who live in Gaza and the West Bank. You talked about your personal feeling, both personally opposed to a two state solution, as well as believing that it's not going to happen in the foreseeable future because of where the Israeli public is. 

There's been a lot, of course, written in the world press about Gaza, some of it perhaps amplified by bias. But nonetheless, there are several million people living in Gaza and the West Bank. What do you see as their future? How can Israel help mold their future? Is there a way to counteract the radical Islamist ideology and try to embody the vision that you said Ariel Sharon had of a more peaceful existence when Israel withdrew from Gaza? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Well, alas, I'm not an optimist on that ground based on the facts, as we've seen them since October 7. Hamas to this day, Iran to this day, the Houthis, the Hezbollah are still committed to Israel's destruction. If we do not have a viable, moderate Palestinian voice and leadership to speak out, because those who have, there are exceptions. But as a rule, those who are very threatened, and some have been killed by Hamas and the others. 

Recently, we've seen just a few, but it's very courageous to see this in Gaza, where we have some groups marching against Hamas. They want better lives, et cetera. But the threat over their heads is great. And, so unless we can see a viable, moderate voice, voices, which really command some power in the West Bank and in Gaza, I'm pessimistic, and I think the best situation, at this point, would be something of a multinational protective force in Gaza. 

The PA cannot be relied on. To this day, while criticizing Hamas for bringing it on, as they see it, this danger, the PA still maintains what they call a pay for slay program, where families of terrorists get regular payments, for example. It's been documented, as well, that the educational system incites from a very early age the children to hate Israel, to hate Jews. If this doesn't change, I'm very pessimistic that we will see in our time, or at least in the next few years, some major radical change for the better. 

[ALAN KADISH] Understood. Let's go back to your book for a second before we continue in this vein. Do you write every day as events unfold? It must be hard in a rapidly evolving situation, to be able to figure out how to construct a book and how to organize a book when, as you're writing, things are changing. How do you develop chapters in that circumstance? So how did you meet that challenge? 

[ALAN KADISH] This was a great challenge, which is still going on. To answer the question, I recall how I began writing, and I followed not only the media. And, fortunately, there's a lot out there, and then the historian has to sift and see, what's reliable, what's questionable, what's important, what's less significant? And that's very difficult. 

So every morning, as I said, every afternoon, every evening, I've spent hours literally at the computer, and then the next morning, work it through again. And as I said, each chapter as a result, except for the first two, for this volume, because October was when it began. So that's two chapters. But each chapter ended up, as I said, following the chronology, and that's what I do for chapter, chapter, chapter. 

And then it's difficult to, I guess, not only come to conclusions, but even a preface. You have to put into a context. So the context requires we assume most readers are not familiar with this. The background, who is Hamas, what is Iran, et cetera, et cetera? And that, too, required a great deal of work. But I think limiting, really, to a chapter per month is the way that, I think, I was able to do so well. 

[ALAN KADISH] Was that a hard cutoff of a chapter a month, or did sometimes events alter where you ended a chapter and began another one? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Every chapter, as I said, ends with a month. But at the same time, often the last lines, uncertainty reigns. Because you don't know what's going to happen the very next day, the very next hour. So that if you look at the book carefully-- and the other volumes will show this as well-- I begin every chapter with day one, but also connecting it clearly to the war and what happened over the last few hours, et cetera, et cetera. 

And then the difficulty, as I said, is where do you draw the line? One can speak about many issues, but I try to, using the historian's antennae, choose what I think is really significant. And if it's just rumor, I don't pay attention to it. I focus on the facts on the ground, who said what, when, and its implications at that point. 

[ALAN KADISH] So focusing on the facts on the ground must be a bit challenging in a situation where there are different media sources that are reporting those facts differently. So how do you get through that and-- 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] I'll give you an example. Gaza, Al Jazeera-- obviously, from Qatar-- and the others immediately said early on, Israel bombed this hospital and many were killed. This was the first major switch. And only later when the IDF showed photographs, and videos, and everything that it wasn't their fault at all, then the Washington Post, The New York Times, CNN, Fox, they moved back a little-- the BBC, et cetera. 

And it required, obviously, time to understand what's the real story. So you cannot conclude-- let's say that paragraph-- say, this is what happened when, days later, you find out that's not what happened. And you have to be fair to history to point out what mistakes were made, and when, and by whom, and why. Not easy. 

[ALAN KADISH] But do you have a hierarchy of sources if sources, even after things have settled down, don't agree? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Yes. 

[ALAN KADISH] How do you decide which is reliable? What's a reliable source? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Well, that's not simple. I would say that I want to cover from the right to the center, to the left, and Arab media as well. Fortunately, there are many sources quoted not only by the media, but there are two major think tanks in Israel which go through the Arab media, point out the difficulties and the other issues. 

And one is the INSS, which is out of Tel Aviv University. Bar-Ilan has the Begin-Sadat Center. So we have a lot of very valuable sources. And it takes time to make sense out of all of it and be aware that days later, the facts may change, and you have to record them as they come. That's what I tried to do. 

[ALAN KADISH] Do you ever feel like you might have to go back to one of the earlier books and have an addendum as more information becomes available? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] I don't think that's necessary because I think it's even a plus that each volume says what happened at that very particular moment. And if nothing changes by the end of that volume, again, you're left with questions. So you go on and you see, OK, what's now going to happen? 

And as I said, is it's still peppered with question marks at the same time. One other thing that I think is very important-- I learned this also from my mentor, the late Professor Leuchtenburg-- tell stories. This is why people will remember. And so I am telling the stories from various angles, people involved-- not only Jews; Arabs, Americans, Chinese, Russians, whatever it be-- the UN, the ICC. 

And also noting the flaws as-- for example, just to give one example, when it was found out that the UN had a relief agency, the UNRWA, which embedded within itself some Hamas supporters, and evidence was clear that the Hamas people were using these quarters for their terrorist action, et cetera, et cetera, that had to be indicated. Or if the ICC is going to level charges against Netanyahu, Gallant, whomever it be, one has to see who are the major players there, and what's really their agenda? And that, too has to be reported. 

[ALAN KADISH] So to play devil's advocate for a moment, although perhaps not so prominent in the first book, we've learned subsequently that some Israelis seem to have acted inappropriately in some of the occupied territories. 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Correct. 

[ALAN KADISH] And that there also have been some cases and mistakes made by the IDF. Do you deal with those in the book? And do-- 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] I do. 

[ALAN KADISH] What about that? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Yes. To be fair, if, for example, there are cases of violence taken by some extreme right wing groups in Israel, these have to be reported. If the IDF bombs the wrong targets and leads to tremendous difficulty and deaths, these also have to be recorded. But at the same time, to be fair, one has to understand if one wants to report tragedies on both sides, then one has to see who's reporting what and when so that-- the so-called Gaza Health Ministry we now know is run by Hamas. And the numbers, as it turns out, are often inflated. 

This is not to excuse, obviously, the tragedies. But I'm very pleased to be able to quote non-Jews who are of a military background from West Point, the Britisher who led their forces in Afghanistan, Kemp, and others to indicate that Israel, more than any other army in the world, took extra efforts and did steps that led to a much smaller civilian casualty rate than any other army in the world. 

That too has to be recorded along with the tragedies, which is why one of my books is in fact dedicated to the innocents on both sides. Because there are many people suffering because of Hamas and what happened in Gaza, and that has to be acknowledged as well. But still, quoting Kemp and the others, I think it can be said very accurately-- and they give the numbers-- how Israel, the IDF, for all faults-- and in the war, innocents are going to be killed as well-- the numbers of civilian casualties far lower than in other army cases. 

[ALAN KADISH] You talked a little bit about the lessons of October 7. What lessons do you think Israel has or should learn from what's gone on in the months and years since then? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Well, first of all, let's look at the military echelon. There was, as I suggested earlier, a conception that we can play both sides against the other-- the PA against Hamas, et cetera. And that didn't simply work. Hezbollah, it didn't work-- the far greater enemy. And I think one of the lessons has to be to understand that there are certain elements within the Islamic world-- not all, but there are, as I call them, radical Islamists who are not ready to compromise. And with them, the IDF and the Israeli public is not prepared to compromise any further. 

On the political level, one of the major lessons has to be, as Harry Truman had to sign on his desk, the buck stops here. People have to take. If you have a prime minister who says, I was never told, et cetera-- let's assuming the devil's advocate, that this is the case-- that itself is problematic because the people at the top should be informed of what's going on. And there are many changes, I think, that Israelis are going to understand. 

I would add another point. What I find hopeful is that reservists, by and large, who came to answer the colors to the flag, well beyond what people expected. And Jewish support from the outside, from all over the world, certainly positive. I hope that that unity within Israel and beyond, along with Israel's supporters, should continue. That's what I'm hoping is a lesson to learn. 

One more point before we go to your next question. I find also remarkable-- not a question of religious observance, but an appreciation of the younger generation-- those in their 20s and even younger, some of whom, of course, gave up their lives. We were amazed at the resilience, the heroism, the courage of what was seen initially as just dismissed a TikTok generation. 

These people flooded the army bases. People from all over the world-- young people-- left their treks and got on any plane in order to get to the state of Israel. This is, I think, hope for the state as it approaches-- it's moving into its 78th year. 

[ALAN KADISH] Has the reaction of many countries in the world regarding this war surprised you? And how do you see that happening in the future? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Yeah, that's a whole new subject. I think if I suggested that one of the great surprises of the war was how the young generation, the future leaders of the state of Israel, responded so positively, so heroically, so courageously, and world support from the Jewish world and some others, if that was one amazing revelation, the other, alas, was the huge explosion of anti-Semitism throughout the world. 

Initially, after October 7, with Israel being seen as David, everybody applauded the Jewish state. But the minute it went on to defend its citizenry, et cetera, David was quickly turned into Goliath. And we had anti-Semitism, especially from the left and the alt-right, all over the world. 

That was another very disturbing conclusion, which led to another thing which we can speak about as connected to Touro University, how the American universities-- just focusing on that-- really were greatly guilty of campus behavior which encouraged these attacks on the state of Israel. And that was another revelation, which I hope we'll see being corrected in time. 

But it's not, for example, the Columbia University that I was proud of, as an illustration. That's really the epicenter of all this difficulty. And it's not limited to Columbia. The war also, by the way, brought out-- my last point on this-- the tremendous-- into the millions, at the very least-- of funds from Qatar and other places to fund very anti-Israel education at all levels in the United States. I'm not even speaking about elsewhere. 

So Qatar is very problematic-- at times, seen as the fire extinguisher, the firemen, coming to douse the fires, but at the same time, the agitator giving funds to Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, Iran. And so it's a very problematic world we're living in. As the Chinese curse has it, we're living in very interesting times, and this is very worrisome. 

[ALAN KADISH] So the topic of American universities is something we've covered on prior Touro talks, and we could spend a long time speaking about. So I'm going to just turn and ask you-- I realize you're a historian, not a prophet. But how do you see-- 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] I'm glad that prophecy has been taken away from us. 

[ALAN KADISH] Do you have any suggestions or predictions about what you might see in the future? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER]In the university system? 

[ALAN KADISH] No, in Israel, in the war. 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Oh, well, some of it I touched upon. I have great hope in the next generation, which has proved itself beyond measure in terms of Israel and the rally in November on the mall in Washington-- a very encouraging point of view. I'm just sad that crisis most often brings people together. I would love to see that when, and hopefully soon, this war comes to an end, that that unity, not only amongst Jews, but among some tremendous supporters-- Douglas Murray, a number of others-- who really met the challenge with truth and objectivity, that this will continue. I'm hopeful. 

[ALAN KADISH] Good. So my last question is, you mentioned that a lot of-- in your book, you personalize with stories. So let's try to end on a positive note. Tell us about a story of someone and how they responded to the war that you found particularly compelling, either in this volume or in subsequent volumes? 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] I'm just going to point to two stories or three. I can go on forever and ever. Unfortunately, the sad stories. Let's start with the guy who actually opens this book, Ofir Liebstein. He was the head of the Gaza Jewish communities near the strip. And he went out of his way, as did many in the south-- it's often forgotten-- to befriend Palestinians, to bring them to hospitals in Israel. 

He started even with the college there to work on an industrial area to bring Palestinians in. He was in charge of one of the kibbutzim security force. And unfortunately, he fell. That's one sad story. But it's the hope of these people which, of course, was rudely shattered. 

The second example is a well-known story already-- Aner Shapiro. He was a young IDF soldier who, in the Nova music festival, fled to what appeared to be a safer room. And a number of people were in there. And of course, the grenades, the RPGs, all these things were thrown and killed many Jews. 

Grenades were thrown into that shelter. Seven of them he caught with his hand and threw them out. The eighth, he couldn't, and it killed him. Hamas kept going in. And the only people who survived were those who played dead under bodies that were already killed. This is all sad, but obviously heroic. 

A positive note. Without mentioning a name, a father whose son was killed in the war early on got a phone call from a young soldier, and this man was a jeweler. And the soldier said to him, I heard that you're a jeweler. I want to get a ring for my "kala" for my bride-to-be. I don't have much money. 

The father said, come into the store. He chose something. He said, I'm giving it to you gratis, in memory of my son. This fellow, to date, has given over, free, more than 80 such rings to our soldiers who come in. And obviously many marriages have happened as a result of this. 

There are many stories. There are Bedouin. There are Arabs in Israel who saved many people from the Nova Music Festival and elsewhere. And when asked later why, they said, that's the right thing to do. It reminded one of the hasidei ummot ha'olam-- the righteous Gentiles during the Holocaust, who saved Jews at the great peril of their families and themselves. And when asked, they said, it's the right thing to do. Without these people, one could easily lose hope in humankind. Thank goodness we have them. And these are models to emulate. 

[ALAN KADISH] Thank you so much. Congratulations again on a fantastic history. And despite the challenges that you described, I think it turned into a remarkable volume that Touro University Press was very happy to publish. And we look forward to the future volumes, and also hope that the positive way you ended means that we can figure out a way to create peace in the region and end the suffering for both Arabs and Israelis, which has gone on far too long. 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Let me just remind you that Israel's national anthem is Hatikvah, the hope. And we'll end on that note. Thank you so much. 

[ALAN KADISH] Thanks for joining us. 

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[ALAN KADISH] And to the audience, we hope to see you in future Touro Talks. Have a great day. 

[MONTY NOAM PENKOWER] Shalom from Israel. Bye. 

[ALAN KADISH] Bye. 

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